Milwaukee Midget

[fordboy628]

Midget/Fordboy,
FYI, while I was reading up on the K, came across some discussion that you probably already are aware of, but in case not--
Mention was made that when changing head gaskets, and perhaps as the result of head/block skimming, it was possible that the through-bolts in a particular location, I think the front or second set, could possibly bottom out on the oil pan, thereby producing erroneous or insufficient clamp loads. 

Given the through-tapped oil rail and ARP studs (non-headed), this sort of thing might be a consideration to keep in mind.  With the generous threaded length of the bottom end, the stud could easily run out the bottom of the oil rail if it were turned until torqued.  Which brings up the question of how to install the studs and keep them where you left them while torqueing/turning the nuts.  Studs don’t necessarily need to be “bottomed”, but if not, further rotation while running down the nuts should be monitored (if, indeed, this pan interference is a genuine issue).  Or, maybe the pan could be “clearanced”.


Tangentally, given the amount of clamp load available, a bit of non-flatness in the head may not require fixing.  Although I gather you may do some milling anyway in the quest for compression.

Did you ever get any feedback from the UK K-racers or find out who built the Touring Series engines?

IO,

Thanks for the heads up.     Another weird anomaly that will need to be check out thoroughly.

I'm thinking that with the studs "bottomed" in the "ladder", as long as there are adequate threads on the upper portion of the stud to permit proper loading, stud movement should be upward, toward the head.    All of this will need to be carefully checked out.    It is a generously thick cast alloy oil pan though, so it may be possible to clearance it.

 
Fordboy

[Milwaukee Midget]

midget,

Assembled the block, girdle and oil pan.   Dropped off the assembly with Mike @ Deerfield for the reverse engineering of the rear mounting plate/adaptor.

Offered up a Mini flywheel (smaller diameter than a Midget f/w) and a gear reduction starter assembly . . . . .     Piece of cake.   Probably won't have to carve the block at all with some clever mounting and orientation of the starter/solenoid.

I love it when a plan comes together!

 
HannibalSmithboy

Just as long as the flywheel isn't cast iron, or if it's aluminum, it's extruded, we're legal.

[fordboy628]

Those of us with older eyes like it when you enunciate clearly and don't mumble in your text. 

Pete

Pete,

I get the older eyes thing . . . . . . .  

I still can't find anybody with anything good to say about ageing . . . . .         but, it does beat sucking dirt . . . . . .    

 
soontobeBeatleageboy

[fordboy628]

midget,

Assembled the block, girdle and oil pan.   Dropped off the assembly with Mike @ Deerfield for the reverse engineering of the rear mounting plate/adaptor.

Offered up a Mini flywheel (smaller diameter than a Midget f/w) and a gear reduction starter assembly . . . . .     Piece of cake.   Probably won't have to carve the block at all with some clever mounting and orientation of the starter/solenoid.

I love it when a plan comes together!

 
HannibalSmithboy

Just as long as the flywheel isn't cast iron, or if it's aluminum, it's extruded, we're legal.

Nah, don't expect to use it.

It was there, and was smaller than your f/w, so it was a good "offer up".

Back to Friday night beverage rating . . . . . .

 
Fordboy

[Milwaukee Midget]

Podunk -

I recall you couldn't remember which cam you put into the Buick - it was a long time ago.  I just discovered it's a Ken Belle Mark 2 - it was stamped on the end.

.477 intake lift .493 exhaust

270 duration intake, 284 exhaust 

113 LCA

This is good news - it was advertised as a torque cam with a decent idle, but with and audible idle pflump to it.

You did your homework, buddy!

[Andy Cooke]

How reliable are they in racing applications?

Last year, MG took the British Touring Car Championship manufacturers championship, beating Honda, Vauxhall, BMW, Ford, Audi and Mercedes.

I think BTCC might be a red herring http://www.swindon-engines.com/uk/enginesinfo.aspx

These guys do smaller throttle bodies, no idea on suitability http://beta.atpowerthrottles.com/product_info.php/dcoe-cyl-48mm-p-74?osCsid=2a55e05c29011f39dca0f25357c7ff08

A few years back Judd (engdev.com) developed a 2L K series, sadly my memory has wiped most of what I was shown, but I seem to recall that injector type and position made, or lost, a chunk of power.  Not very helpful I know, but it might rattle some grey cells. a link of sorts: http://www.engdev.com/wp-content/uploads/EDL_brochure.pdf

On a more important note, I picked up an "Old Crafty Hen" at the supermarket, just need a reason to open it

[fordboy628]

A few years back Judd (engdev.com) developed a 2L K series, sadly my memory has wiped most of what I was shown, but I seem to recall that injector type and position made, or lost, a chunk of power.  Not very helpful I know, but it might rattle some grey cells. a link of sorts: http://www.engdev.com/wp-content/uploads/EDL_brochure.pdf

If we are able to choose, I want the injector to spray at the divider between the two valves.   That's what Cosworth did with the DF's/BD's/FV's with timed mechanical injection.

If we are able to run 2 injectors/cylinder, I would want to spray the back of each inlet valve.    I doubt if we are going to be able to test different injection setups.

You have to wonder if the stock injectors and fuel rail can flow an adequate amount of fuel for a 1.0 liter race engine . . . . . . . . .     I'm thinking that a stock Lotus 1.8 liter is going to make more bhp than a full race 1.0L.    Duty cycle of the injectors might be an issue though . . . . . . .

 
Fordboy

[Milwaukee Midget]

On a more important note, I picked up an "Old Crafty Hen" at the supermarket, just need a reason to open it

Andy, you've got barrel aged pub ale, and you're trying to justify opening it? 

Okay, here's your justification -

You've got barrel aged pub ale.  That's reason enough, mate! 

So now I'm disillusioned about the engines being run in the BTCC.

Why would they screw up a good concept by sticking the same damned engine in everything?  What fun is that?

Here are some REAL production based race cars - Minis and Escorts - sounds like two dozen beehives flying down the track . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYNRJ9z2bso

Mark, you mentioned duty cycle.  Likewise, I'm concerned about maintaining electrical power.  I don't know what kind of amperage electronic fuel injection draws, but I'm certain the fuel pressure required will be a heavier draw than the 4 psi pump currently in the Midget, and I'm not sure we'll be running an alternator.  I think doubling up the injectors might require going to a 16v setup, as the Electromotive system doesn't like low voltage situations.   

[Jack Gifford]

How about "maintaining electrical power" by throwing money at the problem- for instance, lithium-iron-phosphate battery [or batteries]?

[WCJonesJr]

Mark, you mentioned duty cycle.  Likewise, I'm concerned about maintaining electrical power.  I don't know what kind of amperage electronic fuel injection draws, but I'm certain the fuel pressure required will be a heavier draw than the 4 psi pump currently in the Midget, and I'm not sure we'll be running an alternator.  I think doubling up the injectors might require going to a 16v setup, as the Electromotive system doesn't like low voltage situations.   

Some USAC Midgets have been using Esslinger engines with EFI and no alternator for a few years now.  The system uses Electromotive components.

Bill

[Milwaukee Midget]

This just came in on my Twitter feed -

AC/DC's Brian Johnson and MG - with an Old Speckled Hen to wash it all down -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR-O_6XDvYQ

[jacksoni]

A few years back Judd (engdev.com) developed a 2L K series, sadly my memory has wiped most of what I was shown, but I seem to recall that injector type and position made, or lost, a chunk of power.  Not very helpful I know, but it might rattle some grey cells. a link of sorts: http://www.engdev.com/wp-content/uploads/EDL_brochure.pdf

If we are able to choose, I want the injector to spray at the divider between the two valves.   That's what Cosworth did with the DF's/BD's/FV's with timed mechanical injection.

If we are able to run 2 injectors/cylinder, I would want to spray the back of each inlet valve.    I doubt if we are going to be able to test different injection setups.

You have to wonder if the stock injectors and fuel rail can flow an adequate amount of fuel for a 1.0 liter race engine . . . . . . . . .     I'm thinking that a stock Lotus 1.8 liter is going to make more bhp than a full race 1.0L.    Duty cycle of the injectors might be an issue though . . . . . . .

 
Fordboy

I figure you need about 19 lb/her injectors which are dime a dozen available. If you make lot more power than expected, sl larger are easy and duty cycle should be no issue. I used two batteries when was not running an alternator and it worked fine with never a suggestion of voltage issue. Put jumper cables from the push truck while waiting in line or a charger from generator. Also in impound. I was running in addition to the EFI and Ignition, water pumps (3), fuel pump and fans. Never calculated/measured the full up load but as I said, worked fine.

[fordboy628]

It appears that the stock injectors and fuel rail will support up to 200 bhp.

So if they are compatible with the ECU Chris chooses, they can be retained.

 
Forcboy

[jacksoni]

It appears that the stock injectors and fuel rail will support up to 200 bhp.

So if they are compatible with the ECU Chris chooses, they can be retained.

 
Forcboy

Most people and ECU's are using high impedance injectors, though some can do both, now that high flow (not your issue) are available. But easy to measure or find out and be sure when he picks his system

[grumm441]

You really do shout a lot
G

Sorry.   I was trying to be heard in Oz.

Is this better?

Here is a bone for you BMC 'A' series guys still reading the diary . . . . . .

Graham, et all,

As perhaps some of you are aware, even though the Milwaukee Midget is "upgrading" to 1980's technology, I continue to work with 'A' series racers in SCCA and Vintage.    Mostly this is design work and geometry analysis, but there is a fair bit of flow testing, since having a "decent" cylinder head is the key to getting any power.   And, as I have stated and posted before, there is no way to tell the "wheat from the chaff" by just looking at the bare heads.

So, without further comment, some advice:

I'm not going to put up any numbers on this today.

Just had the opportunity to flow test an older, Dave Tabor ported Mini head.  12G940 casting, Cooper 'S' size valves, 11 stud.  Stamped CT201 on top.

On intake:
This head flows as well or better, than the latest and greatest from Swiftune, MED, et all, with a smaller valve . . . . .

On exhaust:
This head flows much better than the above examples, with an equal size valve.

This head was unearthed from a "dustbin" collection, so has been untouched for probably 20/25 years.

Bottom line is:
a)   Dave Tabor undoubtedly knew something about BMC heads.
2)   If you have the opportunity to procure an older Comptune/Dave Tabor cylinder head, especially at a low price, I say grab it, if it has not been screwed with . . . . .
d)   If it has been "improved" by some nitwit without a flow bench, take a pass.

The ideal situation would be if you could arrange to flow test the head before purchase.

JMHO
 
Youcan'tknowwithouttestingboy

Now that took two pairs of glasses
G