Author Topic: Compressing intake air  (Read 8881 times)

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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 10:40:31 PM »
Just to show that nothing is new, Jack Underwood (proprietor of "Jack's Garage" in Fountain Valley, CA. If you've been there you know the history.) and some friends back in the 50's built a Chrysler powered gasser, 40 Willis I think, with the blower in the trunk and driven by a small air cooled engine, I think from an airplane APU. I have seen the pictures, Jack said it had some "development problems". Next time I'm there I'll get more info.

Rex
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Offline JimL

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2013, 01:04:42 AM »
A little bit about my small Turbodyne experience....bottom of the page.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9341.msg238649.html#msg238649

Another one of those interesting experiences that fade into nothing.  Pardon the personal rambling...just a little something fun about the Turbodyne. 

JimL
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 01:07:35 AM by JimL »


Offline dw230

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 10:55:37 AM »
Still not allowed according to post #2.

DW
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Alcohol - because no good story starts with a salad.

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Offline manta22

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 11:31:38 AM »
Don't know anybody who has ever used one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TURBO-5000-ELECTRIC-TURBOCHARGER-TURBO-SUPERCHARGER-KIT-FOR-ALL-CARS-/320978747047?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4abbd2fea7

Robin

I'd be surprised if that thing produced any boost at all. It might even produce a net loss because it can't produce enough air flow to supply the engine requirement. Save your money & tape magnets onto your fuel line. Everybody knows that will give you 100 MPG!  :roll:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline JimL

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 11:40:45 AM »
Ummm...Neil, they have to be Cow Magnets.  Just any old magnet dont work.

And what they dont tell you in their pitch; they must be from second stomach recovered during rendering.  Brand new ones dont work, either. :roll:

JimL

PS:  just remembered...Maybe Colorado State University still maintains a cow with doors in its side, to access the stomachs for feed and digestive studies.

Maybe someone could make an arrangement with the college to process those magic magnets by the batch!

Maybe I should stop this soon after we all just had breakfast. :-P
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 11:46:11 AM by JimL »

Offline manta22

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 11:59:22 AM »
JimL;

Thanks for clarifying why it is not successful to tape just any magnet to the fuel line! My experience with bovine magnets is nil; is a Jersey better than a Guernsey or a ? There is a certain attraction to magnets.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 12:59:12 PM »
I knew (moo) something was "drawing" me to this thread .....
Michael LeFevers
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Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline JimL

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 01:22:25 PM »
Tom, the AMR is a straight lobe design, which is good for long term durability, but has a couple issues.  The useful operating range is narrower because it can get into reheating at lower pumping speeds.  Toyota, and others, used electric clutching or electric intake cutoff to stay out of that, on production cars and vans.

Heres proof I can really mess this up!  Long story, but food for thought.
That reheating issue was a problem for the M62 based blower on our 3.0 V6, 5-speed manual, Pace Cars...one day in March many years ago.  It was Press Day for the Long Beach Grand Prix and we had our pro drivers giving Press rides with those two cars.  This blower system ran the little "vacuum operated bypass closing system" I had developed.  Its primary purpose was to momentarily pull back boost at wide-open-throttle upshifts on auto trans models.

In that application, it worked fine.  Using a vacuum storage canister and a solenoid vacuum control valve, I pulled the boost back for about 800-850 milliseconds durng each upshift (to protect the clutch packs during engagement).  On both M/t and A/T models, I also had "bypass shut off" engage just before the 6800rpm rev limit, because knock detection (in those years) stopped at 6200rpm on 6-cylinder engines.  When the power sagged, the average driver would upshift as a matter of course.

I had experienced some broken knock sensors (which can occur at very high rpm detonation), but I didnt know what I was doing back then (still dont).  Now....there were two knock sensors on the engine; one for each bank.

So, on with that day in March, 2000.  We had Rocky Jr and Juan Paul driving the two fast pace cars, giving rides to press, politicians, and VIPs.  Montoya was getting faster and faster.  I was in the pit area, working on various little "typical stuff" that pops up when you have 20 or so amateur drivers bumping into each other on a track, while fast movers are passing them right and left.

Suddenly, here's Montoya in my stall...."Jeem! Jeem! I have this yellow light and no power until 6200 RPM, then BIG power!". It had broken a knock sensor on one cylinder bank.  We decided (mistakenly) that I could splice the remaining knock sensor into both channels, so we could keep giving rides.  Shortly after I got him back on the track, here came Rocky with the same problem.

So...now I'm ready.  Plug in the scantool, see which sensor broke, dive under the dash, splice the wires, clear the code, send him back on the track in about 10 minutes.  Man, I saved the day.

One lap later, they are towing in Montoyas car with oil and parts dribbling out the bottom of the block.  We get the car tarped, I walk back to the pit straight, just in time to watch Rocky go by.  I saw the blue smoke  and orange flash under the front of the car before I heard the bang.

So, that is how you can go from "great" to "goat" with just a scantool, a pair of wire cutters, and your own wits!

So...that reheating issue, as you see, must be prevented.  We were only running these things at 8-9 psi and they would drop to about 3 during bypass pull off.  I think that problem might have been avoided if I would have understood why the declutch or blower intake "full cut" mechanisms were developed.

You'll also be heading into a difficult area with a near-matching displacement 2-lobe rotor against a single cylinder.  The potential for very heavy pulsing in the intake tract worries me, at least in the low-midrange that you must pass through during various points of acceleration.  Twisted rotors really help, in that respect.

That pulsing has me worried for my project, because it plays Hobb with MAP sensors and intercoolers.  I saw broken up intercoolers during early development of a small V-8 supercharger kit (M90 blower rotor package).  The intercooler was too close to the rotors.  The engines ate a lot of aluminum bits and water a few times.

  I plan to run the largest bypass I can, but the first few gears will be risky because of more time spent in that transition area where some recirculation might occur (like trying to control wheel spin).

I can certainly see the flow advantages of turbo type impellers, but the maps are pretty skinny when you mechanically drive them.  Its also very difficult to run much turbo on a four-stroke single, from what I have seen.  We both have a steep hill to climb, and we get a little winded at this age. :|

JimL

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 02:55:37 PM »
Jim, I may be totally out in left field with this but would a variable drive similar to a snowmobile transmission work to drive either the blower or the turbo style more satisfactorily?  :? :? :?

This from a guy who usually subscribes to the KISS system!  :roll: :roll: :roll:

Pete
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 06:43:07 PM by Peter Jack »

Offline JimL

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2013, 04:47:43 PM »
I keep thinking that was done, at some time, but not sure.  From a practical standpoint, the gear driven "turbo" type chargers work pretty good at low boost for street use.  The soft spool-up of added power is better for most drivers, and certainly easy on the equipment.

Also, pretty "defensive" against customer alterations.

Jim

Offline donpearsall

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2013, 04:51:08 PM »
There was a car show on TV about 1 year ago that used gas powered leaf blowers to turbocharge their car engine. The result was about 1 pound of boost and not enough to make any difference in the car's performance. It was interesting because they really seemed to do a good job of building the system.

Don
550 hp 2003 Suzuki Hayabusa Land Speed Racer

Offline donpearsall

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2013, 04:54:39 PM »
Here is the link to the leaf blown car by Hot Rod Magazine.

http://www.hotrod.com/feature_stories/1310_leaf_blower_supercharging/
550 hp 2003 Suzuki Hayabusa Land Speed Racer

Offline JimL

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2013, 06:32:43 PM »
Neil, for those thinking I might not know my "salt licks from my cinder blocks":

http://thewifeofadairyman.blogspot.com/2010/04/how-magnet-can-save-cows-life.html

One of my side-jobs in high school was working with the Boulder County milk tester.  I worked about 10-12 herds a month, evening and morning weights and samples, and logging butterfat tests fom his centrifugues.  Working in those dairy barns sometimes meant 3-4 showers a day.

The last one was in soap and hot water, before heading off to school at 7:30 AM!  

Most the girls wouldnt go out with me, 'cause my VW Beetle looked as bad as it often smelled.  I did become pretty skilled at slipping the front seats off the rails, at the quarter-car-wash, however.  To this day, when I hear glass jars clinking together I feel like I need a bath! :oops:

JimL

Edit PS:  I was surprised to see that technology has advanced since my youth.  Our cow magnets were often a flattened oval stamping, and not near as pretty as these!

Y'all just need to remember.  If'n you are buying used ones some place, dont tell your daughter where they were before you gave them to your grandkids to play with.  The ladies can get a little squeaky at ya', you know what I mean?  Dont try to explain some of those strange stain marks, either. :wink:  its just chemistry.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 07:13:08 PM by JimL »

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Compressing intake air
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2014, 06:03:44 PM »
Jim,
Concerning your thinking about the inlet pulsations from a two lob blower on a single or twin cylinder engine one thing that would probably help is lots of volume on the inlet between the blower and the engine. Additional volume provides additional capacitance which will lower the natural frequency of the inlet tract and also reduce the pressure fluctuations related to the blower outlet volume vs. the inlet tract volume. If you look at some of the SAE publications on diesel engine inlet and exhaust tracts you can find some info on the application of hemholz resonators that can affect inlet and exhaust tract resonance.

Regarding "cow magnets" I assume that they were being used for cows that had "hardware disease".

Always great to read your post, lots of good experience and valuble info!

Rex 
Rex

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